Month: January 2019

Episode 93

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Disciple Up # 93
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit Pt. 4
The Perpetuity of the Spiritual Gifts Pt. 2
By Louie Marsh, 1-30-2019

Disciple Up Tie Into Everyday in the Spirit

Everyday in the Spirit – https://goo.gl/vAkHH5

Where to get Everyday in the Spirit Campaign materials –  http://christschurchontheriver.com/spiritual-growth/everyday/

Have the Gifts Passed Away? Part Two

Links to websites discussing this issue.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-ceased-perfect-come-1Cor13-8-13.htm

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/onecor13.htm

https://www.equip.org/perspectives/spiritual-gifts-the-perpetuity-of-spiritual-gifts/

http://www.jesuswalk.com/1corinthians/12_excursus-meaning-of-perfect-1cor13_10.htm

The Passage in Question:

 8  Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9  For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10  but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11  When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12  For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13  So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (ESV)

 Gifts Have Ceased View:

The Bible teaches that miraculous gifts were needed for a specific purpose and for a limited time. They were to confirm the Word until the revelation was completed in written form. Then they would vanish from the scene. Paul proves this in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13

Paul, in verse 10, predicts: But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. Whenever that which is perfect came, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit ceased.

We must know what “perfect” refers to in this text. Then we may know whether or not “that which is perfect” has already come. The word “perfect” means “complete” or “whole.” The phrase, “that which,” indicates the word “perfect” refers to something, not someone. Yet, some apply this to Jesus Christ. He said “that which is perfect.” Paul’s words do not fit the context if we apply them to Jesus.

The Word of God is all-sufficient to produce obedient faith.

A Different View:

There are three main interpretations. “That which is perfect” is fulfilled when:

  1. Canon is complete, or
  2. The Church is mature, or
  3. Christ has come.

Let’s consider each view.

  1. Canon View. This is a relatively new interpretation, first espoused by William Edwy Vine (1873-1943), known for his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. This view contends that “that which is complete” refers to the New Testament canon or collection of Scriptures that had been written by the end of the apostolic age, though it wasn’t until the Council of Nicea (320 AD) that the books in our New Testament canon were affirmed throughout the church.

Richard B. Gaffin, Jr., Professor Emeritus at Westminster Theological Seminary, supports the cessation of the gifts at the end of the apostolic period, but has abandoned 1 Corinthians 13:10 as his proof text. Instead builds his doctrine of cessation from deductions based on Ephesians 2:20, “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.”

One of the chief problems with the concept of the canon being “that which is complete,” is that Paul — and even more, his readers — would have had no understanding whatsoever of the concept of the New Testament canon. Thus the identity of “that which is perfect” as the canon wouldn’t have occurred to his readers. From an exegetical standpoint, I believe the “canon view” is indefensible.

  1. Maturity View. The “maturity” interpretation also is a relatively new, first explained by Roy L. Laurin in his 1950 commentary, 1 Corinthians: Where Life Matures. This view takes teleiosas “a state of maturity” (as it is sometimes used in the New Testament) rather than its core meaning of “perfection, completeness.”
  2. Christ’s Coming or Eschatological View. Taking “that which is complete” as occurring in the period when Christ returns has been by far the majority view of this passage throughout church history, and there are good reasons why this is the case, in addition to the obvious weaknesses of the canon and maturity views.
  3. Teleios is best understood as “perfection” (rather than “maturity”) in light of Matthew 5:48, “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” This could have been easily understood by the Corinthian readers.
  4. The neuter form of teleios allows for understanding it as the state of perfection.
  5. An eschatological view of the cessation of spiritual gifts conforms with Paul’s more general statement in 1:7 –“You do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.”
  6. “Face to face” is an Old Testament formula for a theophany which will occur following Christ’s return, so that point seems to be the period of, or after Christ’s return.
  7. Being fully known will only be true after Messiah comes. Isaiah foresaw this time of Messiah’s reign and the gathering of the nations (what we refer to as “the rapture”) when, “the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9)

Some Notes of Interest:

 Christian Research Institute:

THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS- Evidence from the Church Fathers
I think it’s also noteworthy to point out that history repudiates the notion that the supernatural gifts ceased with the closing of the canon of Scripture at the end of the Apostolic age. For example, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Ambrose, and others actually mention the use of supernatural gifts like tongues and prophecy long after the first century. And, of course, the Reformers also believed that the gifts of the Spirit were in perpetuity, not to mention many church leaders who are still alive today. To claim that spiritual gifts are no longer operative is, in my opinion, to fly in the face of both historical and contemporary evidence.

THE SPIRITUAL GIFTS- “Irrevocable”
Scripture tells us that the “gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:29).

Another site adds:

We should note that Paul makes a distinction between the disappearance of the gifts of prophecy and knowledge and that of tongues. This is done using different Greek words and voices. With prophecy and knowledge, he used a word in the passive voice which meant “to be rendered inoperative.” Note also verse 9. But with tongues he used the middle voice and a word that meant “to cease.” The middle voice suggest that this gift would gradually die and disappear on its own. Probably because its primary purpose as a sign to the Jews (see chapter 14:20f) would cease after the fall of Jerusalem. This of course is debated.

 Disciple Up Follow Up Follow Up!!

https://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/harvest-bible-chapel-fires-florida-campus-pastor-for-asking-elders-not-to-let-james-macdonald-preach-during-his-sabbatical.html

Excerpts From the Mancow Muller Article:

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20190125/mancow-speaking-my-truth-to-harvest-bible-chapels-pastor-james

Where We Go From Here

6th The Gifts and the Filling of the Spirit

13th What is The Anointing?, Q&A?

20th – The Blasphemy of the Spirit, Q&A?

Please Get In Touch!

Email – louie@discipleup.org

 


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Episode 92

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Disciple Up # 92
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Pt 3
The Perpetuity of the Spiritual Gifts, Pt. 1
By Louie Marsh, 1-23-2019

This can be a controversial topic. Not as much as it used to be but it is still an area where Christians disagree. So we approach this in the spirit of openness and this being a non-essential where it’s ok to have differing opinions.

Important book on this – Counterfeit Miracles By Benjamin B. Warfield, Copyright 1918

Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield (November 5, 1851 – February 16, 1921) was professor of theology at Princeton Seminary from 1887 to 1921. He served as the last principal of the Princeton Theological Seminary from 1886 to 1902. After the death of Warfield in office, Francis Landey Patton took over the functions of the office as the first president of seminary. Some conservative Presbyterians[1] consider him to be the last of the great Princeton theologians before the split in 1929 that formed Westminster Theological Seminary and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._B._Warfield

Two Main Theories On the Gifts Passing Away:

1) The gifts could only be passed on by the laying on the Apostles hands, thus when the Apostles died and everyone they had laid hands on died the gifts died.

2) 8  Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9  For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10  but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (ESV) The perfect is the completed New Testament, thus we no longer need the gifts and they have passed away.

Some Logical Consequences:

 1) Which gifts have ceased? No one says the gift of teaching or knowledge or serving, etc. are gone. No, only the miraculous gifts are said to have ceased. But since, as we saw last week, the New Testament itself doesn’t divide the gifts into different categories, then if some are gone should they all be gone?

2) If this is true then that means that you shouldn’t see any manifestation of the gifts anywhere in church history. But of course we do. In fact an overview of church history seems to mirror the Old Testament in many ways. In the OT you have periods of miracles followed by periods where you don’t see many. The same is true of church history.

If you maintain the gifts have ceased then you must explain away EVERY reported occurrence in church history. Good luck.

Theory #1: The Laying On of Apostolic Hands

Pentecost

 1  When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2  And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3  And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4 (ESV)

NO HANDS.

Samaria

 14  Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15  who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16  for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17  Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18  Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19  saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20  But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21  You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22  Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23  For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24  And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Acts 8:14-24 (ESV)

22  And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:22 (ESV)

38  And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 (ESV)

HANDS

Cornelius

 44  While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45  And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46  For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47  “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Acts 10:44-48 (ESV)

15  As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16  And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17  If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” Acts 11:15-17 (ESV)

NO HANDS

Ephesians

 1  And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2  And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3  And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4  And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5  On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6  And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7  There were about twelve men in all. Acts 19:1-7 (ESV)

 HANDS

SUMMARY:

 In two cases hands are laid on and in two cases hands aren’t laid on  And in one case, hands are laid on but gifts are seen in the text. It’s also important to add that while Paul was an Apostle and had the miraculous gifts he hadn’t had any Apostle lay hands on him as far as we know.

Cessationists argue that the two instances of no Apostolic hands being laid on are “special events,” i.e. the door being opened to the Gentiles to hear the Gospel and the day of Pentecost is obviously unique. Therefore, they will say, their argument stands.

“This does not mean, of course, that only the Apostles appear in the New Testament as working miracles, or that they alone are represented as recipients of the charismata. But it does mean that the charismata belonged, in a true sense, to the Apostles, and constituted one of the signs of an Apostle. Only in the two great initial instances of the descent of the Spirit at Pentecost and the reception of Cornelius are charismata recorded as conferred without the laying on of the hands of Apostles. There is no instance on record of their conference by the laying on of the hands of any one else than an Apostle”. – Warfield, Pg. 21

Here’s what I think. If you look closely at theses events in Acts every single event is a special event.

  • Pentecost – yep.
  • Samaria – a hated group receiving the Gospel – yes.
  • Cornelius household – the door opening to the Gentiles – obviously.
  • Former disciples of John the Baptist being brought into the faith – of course.

This only makes sense because Luke was writing a history and so recorded significant events in the development and growth of the church as it moved from Jerusalem to Rome. He wasn’t recording everyday common things, but the historically important events that moved the faith along. This is what all historians do and Luke is no different.

Here’s another interesting perspective from a more scholarly point of view: http://reformedperspectives.org/magazine/article.asp/link/http:%5E%5Ereformedperspectives.org%5Earticles%5Ejus_holcomb%5ENT.Holcomb.Acts.html/at/Tongues%20in%20Acts

Point of Interest: the interpretive principle – Precedent VS Command.

This Doesn’t Mean Everything “Pentecostal” or “Charismatic” Is Correct.

One example – everyone speaking in tongues at once. Clearly unscriptural.

27  If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28  But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (ESV)

Disciple Up Follow Up

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/january/james-macdonald-sabbatical-harvest-bible-chapel-lawsuit.html

Please Get In Touch!

Email – louie@discipleup.org

 


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Episode 91

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 Disciple Up # 91
Spiritual Gifts Pt. 2 – Defining the Gifts & A Disciple Up Follow Up
By Louie Marsh, 1- 16-2019

How to define Spiritual Gifts

The necessity of doing so

The difficulty of doing so – there are no definitions in Scripture and very few examples of the gifts in use where they are clearly labeled as those gifts.

Beware of doing so – which doesn’t mean don’t do it but does mean do it tentatively knowing full well your definition could be wrong or incomplete and is probably the latter.

http://giftstest.com/allgifts
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/spiritual-gifts/
https://mintools.com/gifts-list.htm
https://www.allaboutgod.com/gifts-of-the-spirit.htm

Disciple Up Follow Up: Smell the Irony!

Original Story in episode 82

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/january/harvest-drops-suit-james-macdonald-julie-roys-elephant-debt.html

 Please Get In Touch!

Email – louie@discipleup.org

 


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Episode 90

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Disciple Up #80
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Pt. 1
What are the gifts of the Spirit, how many are there & how do they relate to natural talents?
Show Notes, 1-9-2019

 

Where we’re Going For the Next Two Months

Disciple Up Tie Into Everyday in the Spirit

Everyday in the Spirit – https://goo.gl/vAkHH5

Please Note:  I made a mistake when I read out the URL to get to all the Everyday in the Spirit Campaign materials – here’s the correct URL:  http://christschurchontheriver.com/spiritual-growth/everyday/

Gift List websites consulted:

http://giftstest.com/allgifts

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/spiritual-gifts/

https://mintools.com/gifts-list.htm

https://www.allaboutgod.com/gifts-of-the-spirit.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_gift#cite_note-GrudemSysTheo1020-10

Romans 12:6–8 1 Corinthians 12:8–10 1 Corinthians 12:28 Ephesians 4:11 1 Peter 4:11
1.    Prophecy

2.    Serving

3.    Teaching

4.    Exhortation

5.    Giving

6.    Leadership

7.    Mercy

 1.    Word of wisdom

2.    Word of knowledge

3.    Faith

4.    Gifts of healings

5.    Miracles

6.    Prophecy

7.    Distinguishing between spirits

8.    Tongues

9.    Interpretation of tongues

 1.    Apostle

2.    Prophet

3.    Teacher

4.    Miracles

5.    Kinds of healings

6.    Helps

7.    Administration

8.    Tongues

 1.    Apostle

2.    Prophet

3.    Evangelist

4.    Pastor

5.    Teacher

 1.    Whoever speaks

2.    Whoever renders service[10]

The Old Testament:

1  The LORD said to Moses, 2  “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3  and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship, 4  to devise artistic designs, to work in gold, silver, and bronze, 5  in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, to work in every craft. 6  And behold, I have appointed with him Oholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. And I have given to all able men ability, that they may make all that I have commanded you: Exodus 31:1-6 (ESV)

Total New Testament number – around 18, plus what you see in the OT.

Differences Between Gifts & Talents:

The usual explanation – SHAPE

The problem with that illustrated

My view on what could be really happening here:

7  To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 1 Corinthians 12:7 (ESV)

I like this view because it engages the whole person, every ability I have can and will be used by God for His glory when He chooses to do so.

Books Used:

 Discover Your Spiritual Gift and Use it – Rick Yohn

19 Gifts of the Holy Spirit – Leslie B. Flynn

Your Spiritual Gifts Can Help Your Church Grow – C. Peter Wagner

 Please Get In Touch!

Email – louie@discipleup.org

 


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Episode 89

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 An E-Mail Pours In!

Ha! Thanks for the education on the background of using X in Xmas – I always felt guilty if I happened to use it, thus tried not to ever. My sacred cows are being slain one by one – Vivian

Idea – Let’s do a Sacred Cows Series!

What are some of the sacred cows you know of. Even those you’ve learned aren’t true, others might not know. So if you’re sure or unsure send them in to me and I’ll do some research and share them as I’m able on the podcast! E-mail me at louie@dicipleup.org or use the FaceBook page – facebook.com/discipleup

Where We’re Going For the Next Two Months

Disciple Up Tie Into Everyday in the Spirit

Everyday in the Spirit – https://goo.gl/vAkHH5

Topics Covered

1-9- What are the gifts of the Spirit, how many are there & how do they relate to natural talents?

1-16-Defining how the spiritual gifts really work.

1-23- Perpetuity of the Spiritual Gifts Pt. 1

1-30- Perpetuity of the Spiritual Gifts Pt. 2

2-6- How does being filled with the Spirit relate to Spiritual Gifts?

2-13- What “the anointing” really is & the hidden agenda behind how it’s commonly taught

2-20 – Seeing the Work of the Spirit in my life & Q&A

2-27- Q&A on the Spirit

Life Lessons From Jeremiah – UNDERSTAND BOTH THE NATURE OF GOD AND EVIL

16 “As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. 19 Is it I whom they provoke? declares the LORD. Is it not themselves, to their own shame?

20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon man and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground; it will burn and not be quenched.”

21 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. 22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward. 25 From the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt to this day, I have persistently sent all my servants the prophets to them, day after day. 26 Yet they did not listen to me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers.

27 “So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you. 28 And you shall say to them, ‘This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, and did not accept discipline; truth has perished; it is cut off from their lips. 29 “‘Cut off your hair and cast it away; raise a lamentation on the bare heights, for the LORD has rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.’

30 “For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the LORD. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. 33 And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away. 34 And I will silence in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, for the land shall become a waste. Jeremiah 7:16-34 (ESV)

SPEAK TO THE ROOT OF THE SIN – THE REASON PEOPLE DO WRONG:

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken; behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them? Therefore I will give their wives to others and their fields to conquerors, because from the least to the greatest everyone is greedy for unjust gain; from prophet to priest, everyone deals falsely. They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace. Jeremiah 8:8-11 (ESV)

 Please Get In Touch!

Email – louie@discipleup.org

 


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